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Post by saintflorian on Mar 18, 2016 7:11:44 GMT -6
Seems like there's Less support for Troy in Pike county than some on here would like to admit or believe. At the risk of getting my tongue chopped out ( censored1 ), I'd agree with your observation. After almost 15 years of involvement in Troy community affairs and T(s)U activities as a booster, season ticket holder and volunteer, I offer these three oft heard quips from what y'all call the Locals. 1) Some time back, long before my days here, the City of Troy ceded Free Land to the University for what became The Vet; local taxpayers objected but an agreement was made whereby locals would have free access to the facility built thereupon. That agreement was NOT kept by the institution and many locals remain bitter from that singular event. 2) The University continues to build Housing, dining and other infrastructure that not only competes with local entrepreneurs, but effectively "shuts out" options that students might otherwise have for eating, living arrangements etc. by requiring meals plans, dorm plans etc. Many local business have failed due to the institutions advantage requiring these "plans". 3) Perhaps the most distasteful fact is that the Chancellor and his bride not only choose NOT to live in Troy but strongly recommend Montgomery and Pike Road locations to incoming staff for living arrangements!! FACT! Ask any local Realtor! cornhole does not profess to know all the reasons that Locals choose not to support the University, but, if factual, these are three most obvious obstacles to better community relations and support. Please be free to enlighten me where I'm misinformed and add any other facts that may shed light on the locals lack of support. Meanwhile , GO TROJANS!! . Interesting #1 - why locals would be still ticked about this might explain some of the locals inability to see and the ignorance of the bigger picture instead they focus on the petty. The locals do not appreciate the gift that is Troy University. It is the VAST majority of the economic engine for the entire area. Your observations in your post reiterate that. #2 - As Redwaver said, this is on Every Single college campus in the US. And truth be told the local couldn't feed and house every single student. And I wouldn't want the college to give up this revenue stream. Yes the university inflates the cost, as an alumni we need it. And again every college has it. #3 Agree. If your the president, you need to live there. Overall, your points hit on the theme that a lot of alumni state, that the majority of the locals do not support the University. Again there is a large chunk of dedicated local supporters and they should be thanked but I have personally heard way too many locals state that they wished the school would not exist in the town. This viewpoint is real and is holding the University back.
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Post by Troystet on Mar 18, 2016 15:48:23 GMT -6
As far as the Vet goes, if you want to get technical, it's probably an insurance liability. If someone just comes in and someone gets hurt, it's Troy's property, therefore Troy is responsible. That's a hit to image and money. No one in their right mind lives on campus for more than a year with the university's over inflated prices. Then again, most of the apartments are garbage and a pain to live in. (See the kid's video about The Grove and bedbugs) I lived in Willow Terrace for 3 years and highly recommend it to anyone. The "college kids" apartments just aren't worth the money. They went up to quick and have nothing but problems. That's the owners fault. As far as food, that's an excuse, I ate off campus much more than I did on campus. Uncle Jack living off campus has always 6a46f7e4 me off My daughter is on Millenium Scholarship which covers tuition, room and board. I pay extra for her to live in Trojan Village though. I have asked the university if she can have the dollar amount and live off campus. She had classes and labs sometimes till 9 at night and the dining hall closes at 2:30 and then reopens for dinner latter. She has a real hard time even getting to the dining hall. She could share an apartment and cook ( she's a vegetarian) but the university won't do that, and states she must live on campus. What difference does it make? They are paying that dollar amount anyhow
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Post by pcbtrojan on Mar 19, 2016 7:26:24 GMT -6
My father was one of the men who worked to get the Vet where it is today. He grew up in Gainesville FL and saw the development of another so called ditch into what is now Florida Field. He worked out getting the excavation done and got the lights hung by an electric coop. In that era the city had little or anything to do with the College as well as the town. A lot had to do with the schools leaders. What it took was young business men after WW II that came in and saw the potential.
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Post by cornhole on Mar 19, 2016 8:14:25 GMT -6
...Overall, your points hit on the theme that a lot of alumni state, that the majority of the locals do not support the University. Again there is a large chunk of dedicated local supporters and they should be thanked but I have personally heard way too many locals state that they wished the school would not exist in the town. This viewpoint is real and is holding the University back...... Fact: The majority of T(S)U Alumni do not support the university either. The support is very thin as a % of total graduates. This is not a knock on the many that do in fact give, and give passionately and generously in support their alma mater. I count many as close friends!! But the overall challenge to T(S)U is building a bridge to both alums and non-alums, locals etc and expanding the support base for athletics, academics, SOTS etc etc. If just 50% of (verticle/98.6) Alums gave $100 annually, programs woud benefit by approx $4,000,000!
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Post by Hemi Man on Mar 19, 2016 12:30:40 GMT -6
...Overall, your points hit on the theme that a lot of alumni state, that the majority of the locals do not support the University. Again there is a large chunk of dedicated local supporters and they should be thanked but I have personally heard way too many locals state that they wished the school would not exist in the town. This viewpoint is real and is holding the University back...... Fact: The majority of T(S)U Alumni do not support the university either. The support is very thin as a % of total graduates. This is not a knock on the many that do in fact give, and give passionately and generously in support their alma mater. I count many as close friends!! But the overall challenge to T(S)U is building a bridge to both alums and non-alums, locals etc and expanding the support base for athletics, academics, SOTS etc etc. If just 50% of (verticle/98.6) Alums gave $100 annually, programs woud benefit by approx $4,000,000! That's some mind boggling statistics. Hopefully, at the least the businesses in Troy, will learn to embrace the university in the same manner, that they do in Jonesboro, Boone, and Lafayette. It blows my mind that they don't feed off the university's business and make money off those that are in Troy for the college specifically. Without Troy U the city would Brundidge 2.0.
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Post by Troystet on Mar 19, 2016 12:48:27 GMT -6
Fact: The majority of T(S)U Alumni do not support the university either. The support is very thin as a % of total graduates. This is not a knock on the many that do in fact give, and give passionately and generously in support their alma mater. I count many as close friends!! But the overall challenge to T(S)U is building a bridge to both alums and non-alums, locals etc and expanding the support base for athletics, academics, SOTS etc etc. If just 50% of (verticle/98.6) Alums gave $100 annually, programs woud benefit by approx $4,000,000! That's some mind boggling statistics. Hopefully, at the least the businesses in Troy, will learn to embrace the university in the same manner, that they do in Jonesboro, Boone, and Lafayette. It blows my mind that they don't feed off the university's business and make money off those that are in Troy for the college specifically. Without Troy U the city would Brundidge 2.0. Hard to compare Troy to those other cities. Ark St is the next best thing to Arkansas in that state as is Lafayette to LSU plus Lafayette is 150,000 population. Boone is isolated and App St has 2.5 times the enrollment of Troy. What has and always will keep Troy from feeling like a college town is 1) Alabama and Auburn which is listed as the #1 rivalry in the country and both have been successful 2) 231!! Having the main artery through the state running through the town makes a lot of businesses not dependent on the university. If Troy U. Closed down tomorrow it wouldn't effect Zaxbys, McDonalds, Chick Fil-A, Subway, Firehouse, Santa Fe or many other restraunts, gas stations etc who can more than survive off the 231 traffic. Has it gotten better in the town since my days 1986-90? Slightly. So any improvement is a step in the right direction
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Post by Troystet on Mar 19, 2016 13:09:00 GMT -6
...Overall, your points hit on the theme that a lot of alumni state, that the majority of the locals do not support the University. Again there is a large chunk of dedicated local supporters and they should be thanked but I have personally heard way too many locals state that they wished the school would not exist in the town. This viewpoint is real and is holding the University back...... Fact: The majority of T(S)U Alumni do not support the university either. The support is very thin as a % of total graduates. This is not a knock on the many that do in fact give, and give passionately and generously in support their alma mater. I count many as close friends!! But the overall challenge to T(S)U is building a bridge to both alums and non-alums, locals etc and expanding the support base for athletics, academics, SOTS etc etc. If just 50% of (verticle/98.6) Alums gave $100 annually, programs woud benefit by approx $4,000,000! It's a big problem. I have disagreements with some classmates from Florida I attended with. Many attended on the George Wallace Scholarship which made it actually cheaper to attend Troy than a Florida college. So Troy wasn't so much their choice as it was their parents choice. So they are Miami, UF, FSU supporters because that is where they wanted to go. Same I'm sure with kids in Alabama who didn't get to go to Dumbo land or the cow college. Not all don't support Troy, I have a few that do, but everyone thst got a degree and a job because of Troy should give back. Sadly they spend that money going to Gator games, Bama, and Auburn and buying their gear
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Post by Hemi Man on Mar 19, 2016 13:33:48 GMT -6
That's some mind boggling statistics. Hopefully, at the least the businesses in Troy, will learn to embrace the university in the same manner, that they do in Jonesboro, Boone, and Lafayette. It blows my mind that they don't feed off the university's business and make money off those that are in Troy for the college specifically. Without Troy U the city would Brundidge 2.0. Hard to compare Troy to those other cities. Ark St is the next best thing to Arkansas in that state as is Lafayette to LSU plus Lafayette is 150,000 population. Boone is isolated and App St has 2.5 times the enrollment of Troy. What has and always will keep Troy from feeling like a college town is 1) Alabama and Auburn which is listed as the #1 rivalry in the country and both have been successful 2) 231!! Having the main artery through the state running through the town makes a lot of businesses not dependent on the university. If Troy U. Closed down tomorrow it wouldn't effect Zaxbys, McDonalds, Chick Fil-A, Subway, Firehouse, Santa Fe or many other restraunts, gas stations etc who can more than survive off the 231 traffic. Has it gotten better in the town since my days 1986-90? Slightly. So any improvement is a step in the right direction Size of the city has ZERO to do with supporting the university. You are out of your mind if you think the university closing down wouldn't hurt those businesses. It's the very reason several of those on 231 are sponsors of Troy. There is nothing that requires travelers to stop in Troy, Brundidge, or Ozark. There are plenty of options in Montgomery and Dothan. Obviously you've never been to those towns I mentioned above. They visually support they local university and offer discounts to students. Why would you not take advantage of what can be your cash cow in your city. If you think small time you will always be small time. I personally do business with some in Troy strictly because they support Troy. You get that from many others as well who come to town on Gameday and other events.
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Post by Troystet on Mar 19, 2016 13:54:29 GMT -6
Hard to compare Troy to those other cities. Ark St is the next best thing to Arkansas in that state as is Lafayette to LSU plus Lafayette is 150,000 population. Boone is isolated and App St has 2.5 times the enrollment of Troy. What has and always will keep Troy from feeling like a college town is 1) Alabama and Auburn which is listed as the #1 rivalry in the country and both have been successful 2) 231!! Having the main artery through the state running through the town makes a lot of businesses not dependent on the university. If Troy U. Closed down tomorrow it wouldn't effect Zaxbys, McDonalds, Chick Fil-A, Subway, Firehouse, Santa Fe or many other restraunts, gas stations etc who can more than survive off the 231 traffic. Has it gotten better in the town since my days 1986-90? Slightly. So any improvement is a step in the right direction Size of the city has ZERO to do with supporting the university. You are out of your mind if you think the university closing down wouldn't hurt those businesses. It's the very reason several of those on 231 are sponsors of Troy. There is nothing that requires travelers to stop in Troy, Brundidge, or Ozark. There are plenty of options in Montgomery and Dothan. Obviously you've never been to those towns I mentioned above. They visually support they local university and offer discounts to students. Why would you not take advantage of what can be your cash cow in your city. If you think small time you will always be small time. I personally do business with some in Troy strictly because they support Troy. You get that from many others as well who come to town on Gameday and other events. I have two routes I can take coming to Troy. I-75 to I-10 or US 27 to US 19 that runs from south of Tampa to Tallahassee. It takes me through towns smaller than Troy...Bronson, Williston, Chiefland, Cross City and Perry. All these towns have McDonalds, Hardees etc. they rely on the highway, not the towns. If 231 closed it would hurt these business more than Troy closing. Other business need the town and school..Walmart, Lowes, the Banks and many more. I never said the size of the town mattered, I just stated a lot don't need the school to stay open. My daughter goes to several local businesses that support the school and offer discounts. I try to visit these businesses when I come to Troy. Don't think 231 is important then how do the hotels stay in business? We only have 5-6 football weekends
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Post by pcbtrojan on Mar 19, 2016 17:15:23 GMT -6
Bronson has a Mickey Dees?? I avoid the one in Perry. Two times the you know what's was enough for me.
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Post by Hemi Man on Mar 19, 2016 17:44:13 GMT -6
Size of the city has ZERO to do with supporting the university. You are out of your mind if you think the university closing down wouldn't hurt those businesses. It's the very reason several of those on 231 are sponsors of Troy. There is nothing that requires travelers to stop in Troy, Brundidge, or Ozark. There are plenty of options in Montgomery and Dothan. Obviously you've never been to those towns I mentioned above. They visually support they local university and offer discounts to students. Why would you not take advantage of what can be your cash cow in your city. If you think small time you will always be small time. I personally do business with some in Troy strictly because they support Troy. You get that from many others as well who come to town on Gameday and other events. I have two routes I can take coming to Troy. I-75 to I-10 or US 27 to US 19 that runs from south of Tampa to Tallahassee. It takes me through towns smaller than Troy...Bronson, Williston, Chiefland, Cross City and Perry. All these towns have McDonalds, Hardees etc. they rely on the highway, not the towns. If 231 closed it would hurt these business more than Troy closing. Other business need the town and school..Walmart, Lowes, the Banks and many more. I never said the size of the town mattered, I just stated a lot don't need the school to stay open. My daughter goes to several local businesses that support the school and offer discounts. I try to visit these businesses when I come to Troy. Don't think 231 is important then how do the hotels stay in business? We only have 5-6 football weekends Never said 231 wasn't important. You do realize the other sports have fans as well? Hotels are booked up with visiting baseball, softball, and basketball teams along with fans and family members of those teams as well as Troy fans in town to take in those events. Also parents and family members stay in those hotels at times when they come to visit during the off season.
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Post by Troystet on Mar 19, 2016 18:13:43 GMT -6
Bronson has a Mickey Dees?? I avoid the one in Perry. Two times the you know what's was enough for me. Actually I'm not sure Bronson has a restraunts lol. I yawned once and didn't realize I drove through it
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Post by Troystet on Mar 19, 2016 18:16:27 GMT -6
I have two routes I can take coming to Troy. I-75 to I-10 or US 27 to US 19 that runs from south of Tampa to Tallahassee. It takes me through towns smaller than Troy...Bronson, Williston, Chiefland, Cross City and Perry. All these towns have McDonalds, Hardees etc. they rely on the highway, not the towns. If 231 closed it would hurt these business more than Troy closing. Other business need the town and school..Walmart, Lowes, the Banks and many more. I never said the size of the town mattered, I just stated a lot don't need the school to stay open. My daughter goes to several local businesses that support the school and offer discounts. I try to visit these businesses when I come to Troy. Don't think 231 is important then how do the hotels stay in business? We only have 5-6 football weekends Never said 231 wasn't important. You do realize the other sports have fans as well? Hotels are booked up with visiting baseball, softball, and basketball teams along with fans and family members of those teams as well as Troy fans in town to take in those events. Also parents and family members stay in those hotels at times when they come to visit during the off season. I didn't realize all the traffic on 231 was family members of students and the hotels were all filled with 25/35 roster baseball/softball teams. I stand corrected
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Post by Hemi Man on Mar 19, 2016 18:21:43 GMT -6
Never said 231 wasn't important. You do realize the other sports have fans as well? Hotels are booked up with visiting baseball, softball, and basketball teams along with fans and family members of those teams as well as Troy fans in town to take in those events. Also parents and family members stay in those hotels at times when they come to visit during the off season. I didn't realize all the traffic on 231 was family members of students and the hotels were all filled with 25/35 roster baseball/softball teams. I stand corrected You learn something everyday I suppose. Do you think the Hampton and Mariott are there without the university?
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Post by Troystet on Mar 19, 2016 18:28:08 GMT -6
I didn't realize all the traffic on 231 was family members of students and the hotels were all filled with 25/35 roster baseball/softball teams. I stand corrected You learn something everyday I suppose. Do you think the Hampton and Mariott are there without the university? Those two do get used by visiting teams and are the first to book during the football games. Visiting teams aren't staying at the Super 8, motel 6, Days Inn, Econo Lodge or Quality Inn. There is a ton of traffic on 231. My point was the fast food restraunts and hotels get a lot of business off of travelers. I have stayed at the Best Western during the week. Almost everybody I talked with at breakfast was passing through. I just stated a point that some businesses look at 231 as just as or more important than the school. I don't like it or agree with it but it's true. Not all businesses but quite a few
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Post by doug4troy on Mar 19, 2016 21:05:33 GMT -6
Bronson has a Mickey Dees?? I avoid the one in Perry. Two times the you know what's was enough for me. Actually I'm not sure Bronson has a restraunts lol. I yawned once and didn't realize I drove through it Then why did you use it as an example of a town you drive through with eating establishments? Do you really think that the eateries that Troy has is due to 231 and not the school? I don't deny that there is a combination of the two, but your negative outlook on Troy's local impact is glaring.
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Post by cornhole on Mar 19, 2016 21:29:02 GMT -6
For the record, and FWIW, I have maintained for years that without T(S)U and US 231, Troy Al would just be a rural, spot-on-a-map. The looming, largest threat to commerce in Troy is not TSU moving to Dothan but the "Beach Bypass" possibility stretching from I-65 near Montgomery to the beaches in Florida, bypassing Troy some 9-15 miles to the west.
The Publix project here in Troy will have a HUGE impact on trade, commerce and land values within a year or two. Can't wait for you alums and athletic supporters to see the physical changes taking place as we speak! For the times they are a' changin!
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Post by saintflorian on Mar 20, 2016 5:34:36 GMT -6
...Overall, your points hit on the theme that a lot of alumni state, that the majority of the locals do not support the University. Again there is a large chunk of dedicated local supporters and they should be thanked but I have personally heard way too many locals state that they wished the school would not exist in the town. This viewpoint is real and is holding the University back...... Fact: The majority of T(S)U Alumni do not support the university either. The support is very thin as a % of total graduates. This is not a knock on the many that do in fact give, and give passionately and generously in support their alma mater. I count many as close friends!! But the overall challenge to T(S)U is building a bridge to both alums and non-alums, locals etc and expanding the support base for athletics, academics, SOTS etc etc. If just 50% of (verticle/98.6) Alums gave $100 annually, programs woud benefit by approx $4,000,000! Agree ! Unfortunely, I have a lot of fellow Trojan alumni that don't support the University. I know alumni from Troy, went to Troy and live in Troy that support Alabama ! Boogles the mind. But still don't know why the town doesn't 100% rally around the University, if not for anything do it for economic reasons.
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Post by Redwaver on Mar 20, 2016 6:23:06 GMT -6
Fact: The majority of T(S)U Alumni do not support the university either. The support is very thin as a % of total graduates. This is not a knock on the many that do in fact give, and give passionately and generously in support their alma mater. I count many as close friends!! But the overall challenge to T(S)U is building a bridge to both alums and non-alums, locals etc and expanding the support base for athletics, academics, SOTS etc etc. If just 50% of (verticle/98.6) Alums gave $100 annually, programs woud benefit by approx $4,000,000! Agree ! Unfortunely, I have a lot of fellow Trojan alumni that don't support the University. I know alumni from Troy, went to Troy and live in Troy that support Alabama ! Boogles the mind. But still don't know why the town doesn't 100% rally around the University, if not for anything do it for economic reasons. I've seen and wonder the same thing myself. Fact is there is an element, and I'm sure every college town has them, that would love to see the university gone tomorrow. What they want is serenity and to be left completely alone. A university with its students messes with that a bit. You would think a much larger group would be supporting like crazy though if for no other reason, business growth. I agree with the alumni fact. I know a ton of alum in my area that just flat refuse to support Troy in any way. Don't even join the alumni association and yes, most support some bigger school. One example I'm aware of is beyond understanding. In the panhandle of Florida we have hundreds and hundreds of Troy alum but just try to get many of them to participate and/or support in any way. Not a chance! I think it goes back to a characteristic we saw at Troy in the '60's. The athletes referred to our own college as a "suitcase college"! The joke was don't be on University Ave. at 3:00 in Friday you will get run over with kids going home to momma, even on game day. Seemed like they never unpacked their suitcases, just lived out of them Monday until Friday. They wasn't that involved then and it seems that one characteristic carried over to adulthood and still lingers with many students currently enrolled. I remember when my daughter was at FSU, the town was always full of students on weekends, especially during football season but not at Troy.
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Post by cornhole on Mar 20, 2016 7:10:25 GMT -6
Agree ! Unfortunely, I have a lot of fellow Trojan alumni that don't support the University. I know alumni from Troy, went to Troy and live in Troy that support Alabama ! Boogles the mind. But still don't know why the town doesn't 100% rally around the University, if not for anything do it for economic reasons. "...I've seen and wonder the same thing myself. Fact is there is an element, and I'm sure every college town has them, that would love to see the university gone tomorrow. What they want is serenity and to be left completely alone......." That element be ... MO-Rons. Short-sighted, intolerant, self-absorbed and close-minded. Many identify with Universities they've never seen rather than the one next door! Take my next-door neighbor, below, for example. Got his degree at Banks Elementary school but you'd never know it from his wardrobe.
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Post by Redwaver on Mar 20, 2016 7:39:19 GMT -6
"...I've seen and wonder the same thing myself. Fact is there is an element, and I'm sure every college town has them, that would love to see the university gone tomorrow. What they want is serenity and to be left completely alone......." That element be ... MO-Rons. Short-sighted, intolerant, self-absorbed and close-minded. Many identify with Universities they've never seen rather than the one next door! Take my next-door neighbor, below, for example. Got his degree at Banks Elementary school but you'd never know it from his wardrobe. View AttachmentYea, but you have to admit, at least he owns a river yacht!
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Post by Hemi Man on Mar 20, 2016 10:50:32 GMT -6
Fact: The majority of T(S)U Alumni do not support the university either. The support is very thin as a % of total graduates. This is not a knock on the many that do in fact give, and give passionately and generously in support their alma mater. I count many as close friends!! But the overall challenge to T(S)U is building a bridge to both alums and non-alums, locals etc and expanding the support base for athletics, academics, SOTS etc etc. If just 50% of (verticle/98.6) Alums gave $100 annually, programs woud benefit by approx $4,000,000! Agree ! Unfortunely, I have a lot of fellow Trojan alumni that don't support the University. I know alumni from Troy, went to Troy and live in Troy that support Alabama ! Boogles the mind. But still don't know why the town doesn't 100% rally around the University, if not for anything do it for economic reasons. Your post is spot on. I often wonder if there is anything we can do to connect with those that have been away for so long. We had a group come for a game early on this year and then came back for three more. Several are Troy grads, but Bama is their first love. I don't think you will ever convert those, but if they come to the games, buy their tickets, and support Troy in that way then that may be all you can hope for in that situation. I know for a fact they bought 5 stadium club tickets to one game. That's a nice little chunk of money right there. Really all we can do is invite those people that we know should have a passion for Troy and see what happens. I'm all in favor of giving them free tickets the first time, but you can't make it a situation where they expect free tickets everytime. I was shown a very good time by some Troy alumni early on that made a lasting impact. When you invite someone to a game you can't promise a win, but the pregame and festivities surrounding the game will make you want to come back, usually. As far as the business people that object to the university, that just blows my mind. Seems like bad business to work against the best thing you have going in your town. There are some that embrace the university and those are the ones that I choose to spend my money with in Troy.
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Post by Troystet on Mar 20, 2016 13:13:21 GMT -6
Actually I'm not sure Bronson has a restraunts lol. I yawned once and didn't realize I drove through it Then why did you use it as an example of a town you drive through with eating establishments? Do you really think that the eateries that Troy has is due to 231 and not the school? I don't deny that there is a combination of the two, but your negative outlook on Troy's local impact is glaring. Its called SARCASM. Bronson has restraunts I don't have any outlook on Troy's local impact and really don't care. Everyone says the locals don't care about the school and some business don't. I just stated WHY IMO they are that way. As far as 231, do you really think they would be there with out 231? Why do you think the square has trouble? Does the school help? Absolutely. But some of these eateries can survive just off 231 traffic, thus why some (not all) don't care
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Post by TrojanFanatic on Mar 20, 2016 14:50:44 GMT -6
How does the university connect with the businesses in town? How do we get local businesses to not treat students like dirt?
Example: I was in band at Troy and we had to have our uniforms cleaned, but there was a late parade added to our plate that we didn't know about. As a final, the uniforms have to be turned in. No biggie, should be a breeze. Fast forward to a week and a half before finals (the day after our last parade) at Troy Cleaners. I took my uniform in and saw them all piled in the middle of the floor just in one big stack. The lady rolled her eyes at me and got snarky when I told her I needed it asap. There were people that came in a few hours later and were told that they may be able to get their uniform in three weeks. Was it our fault? Nope, but we're the ones that got in trouble
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