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Post by Hemi Man on Dec 12, 2015 7:49:59 GMT -6
Very interesting article on what it will take in the classroom to be a student athlete in college. According to the new standards, high school student-athletes must complete 10 of 16 required NCAA-approved core courses before senior year. Students must earn a minimum of a 2.3 GPA in core courses, and they are not permitted to retake core courses in attempts to improve their GPA. Previous standards did not require that students take a certain number of classes before their senior year, and they only required a 2.0 GPA. Students who plan to redshirt — that is, to delay competition for a year, though they may receive athletic scholarships and practice with the team as incoming freshmen — have slightly different requirements. They must complete 16 core courses, earn at least a 2.0 GPA in core courses, and earn minimum SAT combined scores or ACT sum scores as outlined on by the NCAA sliding scale. www.noodle.com/articles/what-new-eligibility-requirements-mean-for-college-athletes148
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Post by Troystet on Dec 12, 2015 11:15:27 GMT -6
Athletes are no better than regular students. If they don't do the work, they don't deserve to be in college.
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Post by sting on Dec 12, 2015 11:32:40 GMT -6
Athletes are no better than regular students. If they don't do the work, they don't deserve to be in college. Student-athletes graduate at a higher rate than general student population. Keep attacking though!
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Post by Troystet on Dec 12, 2015 11:55:55 GMT -6
Athletes are no better than regular students. If they don't do the work, they don't deserve to be in college. Student-athletes graduate at a higher rate than general student population. Keep attacking though! I was a student-athlete. Why would I attack myself? I've also seen the other side as a parent of regular students and there is a double standard. Take UF here. It's 35 minutes north. My son graduated with a 3.85 GPA in all AP classes, a 1180 SAT and a 27 ACT. He could not get accepted to UF. They told him unless he had a 1250 or above SAT and a 4.0 min GPA he was not considered for admission. Yet if he played football he only needed a 2.0 GPA and a 19 ACT
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Post by sting on Dec 12, 2015 15:25:54 GMT -6
Student-athletes graduate at a higher rate than general student population. Keep attacking though! I was a student-athlete. Why would I attack myself? I've also seen the other side as a parent of regular students and there is a double standard. Take UF here. It's 35 minutes north. My son graduated with a 3.85 GPA in all AP classes, a 1180 SAT and a 27 ACT. He could not get accepted to UF. They told him unless he had a 1250 or above SAT and a 4.0 min GPA he was not considered for admission. Yet if he played football he only needed a 2.0 GPA and a 19 ACT You consistently attack Troy student-athletes and coaches. So you're bitter that football players get in with lower admission requirements than some others? Would you rather Florida not have a football team? Life ain't fair or equal; better come to grips with that.
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Post by Troystet on Dec 12, 2015 16:07:58 GMT -6
I was a student-athlete. Why would I attack myself? I've also seen the other side as a parent of regular students and there is a double standard. Take UF here. It's 35 minutes north. My son graduated with a 3.85 GPA in all AP classes, a 1180 SAT and a 27 ACT. He could not get accepted to UF. They told him unless he had a 1250 or above SAT and a 4.0 min GPA he was not considered for admission. Yet if he played football he only needed a 2.0 GPA and a 19 ACT You consistently attack Troy student-athletes and coaches. So you're bitter that football players get in with lower admission requirements than some others? Would you rather Florida not have a football team? Life ain't fair or equal; better come to grips with that. I did not attack any Troy players or coaches. I made a statement that athletes are no better than any other students but you have two sets of entrance requirements at some schools. Life is not fair, your right but is it fair that you tell one person who took hard classes, got great grades and a great test score that they aren't good enough but tell another one who didn't you are good enough because you can play ball. Student-Athlete or athlete-student? Life and jobs doesn't give you a pass because you play ball. I am proud to have been a student athlete at Troy but I'm more proud that I graduated with a 3.4 GPA and got a business management degree and did it in four years. I love sports, but I also think it's wrong to have two sets of requirements, that's all I'm saying
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Post by sting on Dec 12, 2015 18:14:42 GMT -6
You consistently attack Troy student-athletes and coaches. So you're bitter that football players get in with lower admission requirements than some others? Would you rather Florida not have a football team? Life ain't fair or equal; better come to grips with that. I did not attack any Troy players or coaches. I made a statement that athletes are no better than any other students but you have two sets of entrance requirements at some schools. Life is not fair, your right but is it fair that you tell one person who took hard classes, got great grades and a great test score that they aren't good enough but tell another one who didn't you are good enough because you can play ball. Student-Athlete or athlete-student? Life and jobs doesn't give you a pass because you play ball. I am proud to have been a student athlete at Troy but I'm more proud that I graduated with a 3.4 GPA and got a business management degree and did it in four years. I love sports, but I also think it's wrong to have two sets of requirements, that's all I'm saying You attack plenty in other posts. Why are you even a fan of collegiate athletics if you feel this way? You son wasn't competing against those athletes for admission spots, he was competing against other non athletes. If there wasn't athletics at Florida, it's not like they would be filling those non athlete spots with general population.
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Post by doug4troy on Dec 12, 2015 23:49:29 GMT -6
Short answer... yes. Student athletes are a small fraction of the total yearly admissions, but their impact on school perception and revenues are far greater than the average student.
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Post by Bubba the Trojan on Dec 13, 2015 14:02:36 GMT -6
Short answer... yes. Student athletes are a small fraction of the total yearly admissions, but their impact on school perception and revenues are far greater than the average student. I'm reminded of a short story we studied in high school entitled "The Lottery", by Shirley Jackson. In summary the story told the tale of a village that assembled annually for "the lottery". The patriarch of each family would draw a stone from a container. One stone was marked with a dot and the family whose patriarch drew the marked stone would then assemble. Each head of house within that family would then repeat the process. Finally, the family whose head of house drew the marked stone assembled and each individual family member drew a stone. The individual who drew the marked stone was then stoned to death by the assembled villagers. The mother of the family drawing the marked stone in the final round kept saying over and over, "it isn't fair". Finally, at the end, she said, "it isn't right". It was at this point she correctly articulated the issue. The process was fair throughout, the actions at the end were wrong. This issue is similar. The NCAA sets eligibility standards for student athletes. If an institution's administration decides to admit athletes according to those standards while holding non athletes to higher standards, and if they consistently apply those standards, then it's "fair". The question then becomes "Is it right?" to which I believe the answer is no. Student athletes should be students first. As long, however, as college athletics are so profitable, we will not see this be a reality.
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Post by Troystet on Dec 13, 2015 19:00:44 GMT -6
I did not attack any Troy players or coaches. I made a statement that athletes are no better than any other students but you have two sets of entrance requirements at some schools. Life is not fair, your right but is it fair that you tell one person who took hard classes, got great grades and a great test score that they aren't good enough but tell another one who didn't you are good enough because you can play ball. Student-Athlete or athlete-student? Life and jobs doesn't give you a pass because you play ball. I am proud to have been a student athlete at Troy but I'm more proud that I graduated with a 3.4 GPA and got a business management degree and did it in four years. I love sports, but I also think it's wrong to have two sets of requirements, that's all I'm saying You attack plenty in other posts. Why are you even a fan of collegiate athletics if you feel this way? You son wasn't competing against those athletes for admission spots, he was competing against other non athletes. If there wasn't athletics at Florida, it's not like they would be filling those non athlete spots with general population. So you admit there is a double standard? And your wrong about your statement at UF. If they had no athletics they would fill them with more students. They can't expand to increase enrollment so they keep raising the entrance requirements on students...except athletes. I would say in football and basketball at UF there is at least a 1.0 GPA and 10 Point difference in ACT scores vs general students. One of the reason UCF enrollment has sky rocketed because the state keeps growing but the slots at UF don't. And if you want to consider saying that athletes don't deserve preferential treatment as an attack? That's your problem. A university is a institute of learning and research first, yes, athletics brings in big money at certain schools but not at others. If you allow in students who could other wise not get accepted at a school just because they play sports, that in itself is discrimination. As an example, a player gets into a school with a 2.3 HS GPA and a 19 ACT but for a general student they need a 3.8 GPA and 27 ACT. Does the student with a 3.5 GPA and a 25 ACT have a gripe that they could not attend that school but the athlete can? And in athletics also, what about the player who is a little less talented but got great grades and test scores. He loses out on some opportunities and has to go to maybe a lower school than he wishes. I realize that schools will continue to do this. I was a student athlete but I also had the grades and test scores but was less talented than D1 players that signed with lower grades and scores. I have also seen first hand in my family how this double standard dashes hopes and dreams of so called regular students. The term student-athlete was invented by a attorney for the NCAA to prohibit a athlete from filing a workers compensation claim against the university if he/she was injured. That was the only reason and had not been refered to that before. They are students of that university who happen to play athletics. We don't refer to the band members as student-musicians, or students that work to pay their school as student-restraunt worker or student-wal-mart worker or my daughter who has a job as a student-sandwich maker?
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Post by doc71 on Dec 13, 2015 19:21:18 GMT -6
You attack plenty in other posts. Why are you even a fan of collegiate athletics if you feel this way? You son wasn't competing against those athletes for admission spots, he was competing against other non athletes. If there wasn't athletics at Florida, it's not like they would be filling those non athlete spots with general population. So you admit there is a double standard? And your wrong about your statement at UF. If they had no athletics they would fill them with more students. They can't expand to increase enrollment so they keep raising the entrance requirements on students...except athletes. I would say in football and basketball at UF there is at least a 1.0 GPA and 10 Point difference in ACT scores vs general students. One of the reason UCF enrollment has sky rocketed because the state keeps growing but the slots at UF don't. And if you want to consider saying that athletes don't deserve preferential treatment as an attack? That's your problem. A university is a institute of learning and research first, yes, athletics brings in big money at certain schools but not at others. If you allow in students who could other wise not get accepted at a school just because they play sports, that in itself is discrimination. As an example, a player gets into a school with a 2.3 HS GPA and a 19 ACT but for a general student they need a 3.8 GPA and 27 ACT. Does the student with a 3.5 GPA and a 25 ACT have a gripe that they could not attend that school but the athlete can? As Bubba the trojan put so well ... there are often things that we can say aren't "right"! I would also say "unfair" in a sense as well. But, that's so all through life. In the words of my old 7th grade teacher: Kid made bad grade, he said, "that ain't Fair!". Teacher: "Fair ... Fair ... It ain't fair you livin and folks better than you dead!! Shut up and sit down!" Also, entrance standards will be rising across FL. Few months ago, we had consultants come do some training on advising/retention, etc. They were From FAU. FL, and many other states (AL likely soon to follow) are changing formulas for state funding. No more will it just be "butts in the seats"! But, it will based on Completion/graduation, etc (among other things). So, what's the best way a school can ensure students complete/succeed/graduate ... well, if you only take the top students! (those guys said UF will likely be going to 4.0 for admission) Now, the case of taking athletes with lower scores, etc., that seems to be a calculation that the risk they pose to funding loss by not succeeding academically is out weighed by their potential for bringing other things to the school: funds, exposure, merchandising, etc. Going back the original article about the new standards ... I think that's apparently an attempt to correct some of what can be seen as unfair/not right. Of course, there are lots of issues with the higher standards. (as stated in the article). I for one am a big believer that the college experience (especially as an athlete) can dramatically change a kid's life ... even if they weren't able to complete/graduate. Anyway, lots of changes coming down the road in Higher Ed the next several years!
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Post by Troystet on Dec 13, 2015 19:33:07 GMT -6
So you admit there is a double standard? And your wrong about your statement at UF. If they had no athletics they would fill them with more students. They can't expand to increase enrollment so they keep raising the entrance requirements on students...except athletes. I would say in football and basketball at UF there is at least a 1.0 GPA and 10 Point difference in ACT scores vs general students. One of the reason UCF enrollment has sky rocketed because the state keeps growing but the slots at UF don't. And if you want to consider saying that athletes don't deserve preferential treatment as an attack? That's your problem. A university is a institute of learning and research first, yes, athletics brings in big money at certain schools but not at others. If you allow in students who could other wise not get accepted at a school just because they play sports, that in itself is discrimination. As an example, a player gets into a school with a 2.3 HS GPA and a 19 ACT but for a general student they need a 3.8 GPA and 27 ACT. Does the student with a 3.5 GPA and a 25 ACT have a gripe that they could not attend that school but the athlete can? As Bubba the trojan put so well ... there are often things that we can say aren't "right"! I would also say "unfair" in a sense as well. But, that's so all through life. In the words of my old 7th grade teacher: Kid made bad grade, he said, "that ain't Fair!". Teacher: "Fair ... Fair ... It ain't fair you livin and folks better than you dead!! Shut up and sit down!" Also, entrance standards will be rising across FL. Few months ago, we had consultants come do some training on advising/retention, etc. They were From FAU. FL, and many other states (AL likely soon to follow) are changing formulas for state funding. No more will it just be "butts in the seats"! But, it will based on Completion/graduation, etc (among other things). So, what's the best way a school can ensure students complete/succeed/graduate ... well, if you only take the top students! (those guys said UF will likely be going to 4.0 for admission) Now, the case of taking athletes with lower scores, etc., that seems to be a calculation that the risk they pose to funding loss by not succeeding academically is out weighed by their potential for bringing other things to the school: funds, exposure, merchandising, etc. Going back the original article about the new standards ... I think that's apparently an attempt to correct some of what can be seen as unfair/not right. Of course, there are lots of issues with the higher standards. (as stated in the article). I for one am a big believer that the college experience (especially as an athlete) can dramatically change a kid's life ... even if they weren't able to complete/graduate. Anyway, lots of changes coming down the road in Higher Ed the next several years! They have already made huge changes here to Bright Futures Scholarship. To get the 75% one you have to make a 26 ACT. Anything below that gets nothing. Our youngest daughter had a 3.5 GPA, honor grad, but can't make the 26 ACT so she gets nothing. Two years ago she would have gotten it.
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Post by Hemi Man on Dec 13, 2015 20:36:58 GMT -6
It isn't fair, yada, yada, yada.......
Isn't it amazing though, when an athlete, who never would have been able to attend college, takes full advantage of his education and excels in life? I love a good success story, and there are many that start with a scholarship from Troy university.
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Post by Troystet on Dec 14, 2015 9:49:02 GMT -6
It isn't fair, yada, yada, yada....... Isn't it amazing though, when an athlete, who never would have been able to attend college, takes full advantage of his education and excels in life? I love a good success story, and there are many that start with a scholarship from Troy university. Yes it's always great when someone succeeds. What I'm talking about is not Troy. I love Troy dearly but it's not a difficult school to get into. The entrance requirements for athletics and students is the same. 2.0 GPA and a 17 ACT (conditional) or 19 ACT (unconditional). The difference at Troy is that gets you a full athletic ride but to get a chancellors scholarship (tuition) you must have a 3.0 GPA and a 27 ACT and maintain a 3.0 GPA at Troy or what my daughter attends on The Millenium which required a 3.5 GPA and a 31 ACT and maintain a 3.3 GPA at Troy and that earned her a tuition and room and board scholarship. It covers $1,350 of room (Hamill or Gardner) it does not cover lab fees, student fees, registration fees, books etc. I have her in Trojan Village and with what it doesn't cover I still pay out of pocket over $5,000 a year. Also it only covers for 4 years so she is taking 16-18 hours a semester and I had to pay for summer school the last two years out of pocket ($6,500) so she can graduate in four years with a Biomedical Science degree. I know all full well the time requirements of athletes and what they go through. It paid my way to college, but I've also seen the other side to and I see friends of ours with very bright kids either graduating with $40,000 plus in debt or working full time and taking 5-6 years to graduate. my point on the double standards are directed at certain school, the university of Florida being the one I'm most familiar with as their is almost a 2.0 GPA difference and 8-10 ACT points difference in athlete to student entrance requirements. Yes, there are some athletes that get in barely that maybe graduate and that's great. But what about the student like my son who wanted to go there, could have just commuted each day, gotten his degree and had great alumni connections but was told his 3.85 GPA and 26 ACT weren't good enough. That's my point. I'm not anti-athlete. I played football, baseball, and track in high school and football at Troy. I just don't believe that makes you better than any other student.
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Post by Trojan Warrior on Dec 14, 2015 13:03:38 GMT -6
I don’t think the two can be compared fairly and this is why.
UF receives more than 30,000 applications for around 7,000 openings each year. Therefore, they are forced to rack and stack applicants. Because they only accept the top ~20%, the criterion for admission is extremely rigorous. Twenty years ago UF had around 13,000 applicants per year and they were able admit about 67%.
UF’s average freshman profile reads like this: 4.3 GPA, 1958 SAT score, 30 ACT score. According to princetonreview.com (2013), the national average for the SAT is 1500 and 21 for ACT.
By comparison, the average GPA for freshmen entering UCF last fall was 3.8. It was 3.9 at FSU, 3.8 at USF and 3.7 at Florida International University.
It’s not UF's fault that they have 30K applications a year. If they had less applicants, they would in turn have lower qualifications.
I could only hope that someday TROY has that same problem.
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Post by Troystet on Dec 14, 2015 13:15:03 GMT -6
I don’t think the two can be compared fairly and this is why. UF receives more than 30,000 applications for around 7,000 openings each year. Therefore, they are forced to rack and stack applicants. Because they only accept the top ~20%, the criterion for admission is extremely rigorous. Twenty years ago UF had around 13,000 applicants per year and they were able admit about 67%. UF’s average freshman profile reads like this: 4.3 GPA, 1958 SAT score, 30 ACT score. According to princetonreview.com (2013), the national average for the SAT is 1500 and 21 for ACT. By comparison, the average GPA for freshmen entering UCF last fall was 3.8. It was 3.9 at FSU, 3.8 at USF and 3.7 at Florida International University. It’s not UF's fault that they have 30K applications a year. If they had less applicants, they would in turn have lower qualifications. I could only hope that someday TROY has that same problem. The state keeps growing and UF can't expand so it's forced their criteria up. UCF has went from 36,000 enrollment in 2000 to almost 80,000 now and it can still grow. They are getting 25% of all community college transfers in the state which is mind boggling.
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Post by trojanbrutha on Dec 14, 2015 13:24:49 GMT -6
'More money, more problems...'
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Post by trojanempire on Dec 15, 2015 8:17:55 GMT -6
I was a student-athlete. Why would I attack myself? I've also seen the other side as a parent of regular students and there is a double standard. Take UF here. It's 35 minutes north. My son graduated with a 3.85 GPA in all AP classes, a 1180 SAT and a 27 ACT. He could not get accepted to UF. They told him unless he had a 1250 or above SAT and a 4.0 min GPA he was not considered for admission. Yet if he played football he only needed a 2.0 GPA and a 19 ACT You consistently attack Troy student-athletes and coaches. So you're bitter that football players get in with lower admission requirements than some others? Would you rather Florida not have a football team? Life ain't fair or equal; better come to grips with that. Don't you understand how student-athletes are being insulted with these standards? By lowering the standards for athletes they are essentially saying "We know you aren't smart enough academically but you can ball, so come on in and play for good ol' State U." Athletes should be held to whatever admission requirements there are for "regular" students at that school.
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Post by trojanempire on Dec 15, 2015 8:23:36 GMT -6
It isn't fair, yada, yada, yada....... Isn't it amazing though, when an athlete, who never would have been able to attend college, takes full advantage of his education and excels in life? I love a good success story, and there are many that start with a scholarship from Troy university. The point is that, with these low standards, several people who probably don't deserve to be in college get in because of their athletic prowess and while kids who take all the hard courses and put in all the work are unable to go to the college they desire because Skippy from Ozark averages 25 points and 10 boards a game. I feel athletes should be held to whatever admittance standards are required of "regular" students at said university.
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Post by saintflorian on Dec 15, 2015 13:25:45 GMT -6
It isn't fair, yada, yada, yada....... Isn't it amazing though, when an athlete, who never would have been able to attend college, takes full advantage of his education and excels in life? I love a good success story, and there are many that start with a scholarship from Troy university. The point is that, with these low standards, several people who probably don't deserve to be in college get in because of their athletic prowess and while kids who take all the hard courses and put in all the work are unable to go to the college they desire because Skippy from Ozark averages 25 points and 10 boards a game. I feel athletes should be held to whatever admittance standards are required of "regular" students at said university. . This would return major collegiate athletics to the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's.
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Post by Bubba the Trojan on Dec 15, 2015 16:17:06 GMT -6
The point is that, with these low standards, several people who probably don't deserve to be in college get in because of their athletic prowess and while kids who take all the hard courses and put in all the work are unable to go to the college they desire because Skippy from Ozark averages 25 points and 10 boards a game. I feel athletes should be held to whatever admittance standards are required of "regular" students at said university. . This would return major collegiate athletics to the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's. I'm pretty sure I have no problem with this.
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Post by doc71 on Dec 15, 2015 16:35:57 GMT -6
. This would return major collegiate athletics to the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's. I'm pretty sure I have no problem with this. I've talked to a few guys over the years that played for Bear back in the 60s. (I'm actually named for one of his All-Americans that played HS for my dad). Believe me, with schools that put emphasis on sports ... athletes have always been treated differently! Do you think Namath, Stabler, etc. were really held to same standards as "normal" students? Back in the day ... there were very few restrictions ... recruiting was like the Wild West! Married students were given housing for their family ... jobs for wives, etc. Whole different world. (Read "The Last Coach" about Bear ... great book!) Heck, I came out of HS in 84. If I was a HS Sr. today, I would have a hard time qualifying for college ... and for sure wouldn't as a "normal" student. I took ACT one time, made an 18 or 19 as I recall. (left PCB at midnight and drove 6 hrs in to the testing center and took a quick nap before the test ... made little designs with the dots in the math portion!). I don't really like that so much emphasis is put on that one test score!! It might be an ok indicator of where a person is academically at that exact point in time (or at least who has the funds to take lots of ACT training), but hard work/perseverance have much more to do with a person's eventual academic and professional success!
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Post by Troystet on Dec 15, 2015 16:50:48 GMT -6
It isn't fair, yada, yada, yada....... Isn't it amazing though, when an athlete, who never would have been able to attend college, takes full advantage of his education and excels in life? I love a good success story, and there are many that start with a scholarship from Troy university. The point is that, with these low standards, several people who probably don't deserve to be in college get in because of their athletic prowess and while kids who take all the hard courses and put in all the work are unable to go to the college they desire because Skippy from Ozark averages 25 points and 10 boards a game. I feel athletes should be held to whatever admittance standards are required of "regular" students at said university. That was the point I was trying to convey. I played football but I was no better than a regular student. Fortunately I had good grades and was more than qualified academically but I've seen the sting of this double standard to much here. If you have a university and everyone is a student then why is everyone not held to the same standards. It is not a problem at Troy (not sure if that is good or bad) but other schools it's a huge problem
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Post by Troystet on Dec 15, 2015 16:55:16 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure I have no problem with this. I've talked to a few guys over the years that played for Bear back in the 60s. (I'm actually named for one of his All-Americans that played HS for my dad). Believe me, with schools that put emphasis on sports ... athletes have always been treated differently! Do you think Namath, Stabler, etc. were really held to same standards as "normal" students? Back in the day ... there were very few restrictions ... recruiting was like the Wild West! Married students were given housing for their family ... jobs for wives, etc. Whole different world. (Read "The Last Coach" about Bear ... great book!) Heck, I came out of HS in 84. If I was a HS Sr. today, I would have a hard time qualifying for college ... and for sure wouldn't as a "normal" student. I took ACT one time, made an 18 or 19 as I recall. (left PCB at midnight and drove 6 hrs in to the testing center and took a quick nap before the test ... made little designs with the dots in the math portion!). I don't really like that so much emphasis is put on that one test score!! It might be an ok indicator of where a person is academically at that exact point in time (or at least who has the funds to take lots of ACT training), but hard work/perseverance have much more to do with a person's eventual academic and professional success! My dad went to HS with a big lineman that went and played for Neyland at Tennessee. He got married right out of HS. He got drafted by the Lions in the first round and when my dad seen him he told him he was taking a pay cut to turn pro. UT paid his rent, bought him a car, gave him spending money etc. like you said, no rules. Jackie Sherrill when he was at Pitt ushered in the scholarship maximums because one year he signed 105 to one signing class.
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Post by trojanempire on Dec 16, 2015 9:43:57 GMT -6
The point is that, with these low standards, several people who probably don't deserve to be in college get in because of their athletic prowess and while kids who take all the hard courses and put in all the work are unable to go to the college they desire because Skippy from Ozark averages 25 points and 10 boards a game. I feel athletes should be held to whatever admittance standards are required of "regular" students at said university. . This would return major collegiate athletics to the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's. Ok. And?
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